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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 22, 2005 11:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=47707

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 22, 2005 11:29pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Thanks for the link, but this:

"Given the conversations, I think we have said what we could and should. What we are optimizing for is to bring as much access to great works as we can and give all involved time and space to learn."

...doesn't really say anything. Again, I think all here are entitled to a detailed explanation of what is going on. Absent that, I can arive at only 2 scenarios as to what is happening here:

1. The GD are making a quantum shift in their trading/sharing policy. If this is the case, they are implementing this new policy poorly, given that no official public statement has been made. Further, I'd say the letter-writing campaign is the precise reaction us fans should have.

2. The LMA is proactively reacting (possibly overreacting) to perceived changes in the way the GD are doing business. If this is the case, I'm troubled by the statement that all the material generously donated by tapers and collectors -- donated under very specific understanding as to how it would be handled -- is now being privately archived for "preservation purposes." If the LMA librarians know that there's no hope of this material being publicly shared again, they should return every last disc to the proper owners and expunge the data from their personal archives.

Again, a bit better explanation will stop the speculation....

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 22, 2005 11:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

"I think we have said what we could and should" is a polite way of saying that the whole story will not be made available. Sorry, that's the way it goes.

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Poster: hjl1450 Date: Nov 22, 2005 11:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Whatever the title is or subject of official posts...this is not a happy day in Dead land. I'm sitting here in my office listening to another great show from Capitol Theater 1977 April run, one day before Thanksgiving and the world is going to hell in a bucket, and the first snow of the year is falling here in Detroit....and our community is thrown into chaos and shock again reminding me of that sad warm August morning more than ten years ago....

Fare thee well, my only friend.....

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 22, 2005 11:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

> Sorry, that's the way it goes.

Sure....but that sword can cut both ways.

As it pertains to the GD: if this is a permanent fundamental shift in policy, they deserve the fan backlash they're getting.

As it pertains to LMA: if this experiment is really over, then maintaining a "private archive" is completely inappropriate for a non-profit organization, and they should return all their borrowed recordings to the rightful owners.

Sorry, but that's the way it goes.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead: IA preservation

maintaining a "private archive" is completely inappropriate for a non-profit organization

No, in fact it's completely appropriate for what this site is about- preservation, even of some archival material that must remain "dark" for now. Example: http://www.archive.org/about/dmca.php

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Poster: pnc Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead: IA preservation



exactly... i am missing the music terribly, and am experiencing a tumult of feelings on the issue. however, i feel better knowing that all that wonderful music is still there, kept safe and warm, and will hopefully be back. even if it does not return in my lifetime...it sure was amazing to have that access while it lasted. thank the heavens for a large external hardrive:)

many thanks to the archive (again) for allowing me to experience an even deeper understanding and appreciation of the music I thought I knew so well.

later...

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Poster: chillhuman Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead: IA preservation

By your own mission statement -

The Internet Archive is working to prevent the Internet — a new medium with major historical significance — and other "born-digital" materials from disappearing into the past. Collaborating with institutions including the Library of Congress and the Smithsonian, we are working to preserve a record for generations to come.

What's the point of preserving this stuff it it's not freely available "for generations to come" ? I'm sure that when you go to your local / state / national representatives to push for better legal standing, the private archiving doesn't come up.

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Poster: jcroot Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

how exactly do you return a soft copy of a show? what would the source do with it since they already have the exact same thing? there are many instances where brick and mortar libraries have non-circulating materials that are held for archiving and safekeeping so that at one point they might be open to the public when circumstances change. why the spite at the archive anyway? it's clear they're all disappointed about this - do you think they benefit in some way?

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

No spite at all. I'm simply asking for an explanation. Everyone assumes that this a result of something the GD has done or requested. While that's probably a safe assumption, there's been nothing from the GD to indicate why this action was necessary. So before everyone starts letter-writing campaigns and organizing boycotts, it would be nice to know why this is happening. Especially given the time and effort the GD trading community has devoted to this site.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

there's been nothing from the GD to indicate why this action was necessary.

True. Therefore your demands for more information from the IA are misdirected.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-23 08:38:09

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Poster: Albix714 Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

I'd have to say this is the wrong forum but you can thank GDP for that one. They've left people no other venue. If I were the archive, I wouldn't want anything to do with GD music again.

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Poster: PhunkyZen Date: Nov 23, 2005 2:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

This news story says it all.. we should have seen this coming awhile ago.

Grateful Dead to offer entire catalog on iTMS
March 19, 2004 - 11:38 EST The Grateful Dead are finalizing a deal with Apple to make every live note they've ever recorded available for download from the iTunes Music Store (iTMS). "Everything, sooner or later, will end up being released on the Web," guitarist Bob Weir says. "What we wanna do is digitize our entire catalog, our entire collection of tapes and make that stuff available. I think iTunes is up to that." The band has recorded all of its live shows since the late 1960s. Weir says the Dead's jams are a bargain. "At 99 cents a tune, it's a pretty decent price, because most of our tunes are pretty long."

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Poster: Down the road feeling bad Date: Nov 23, 2005 2:50am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

do you have a link to that 'story'?

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Poster: Down the road feeling bad Date: Nov 23, 2005 3:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Well, PhunkyZen may have a good point. Here's a link to a similar story:
http://macteens.org/index.php/features/fullstory/itunes_set_to_feature_all_of_the_grateful_deads_live_performances/

and a more recent one (March 2, 2005)

http://news.com.com/iTunes+walks+with+the+Dead/2100-1027_3-5596572.html

This sucks... 99 cents isn't exactly cheap and moreover it's absurd for an ACC or mp3

It sure looks like we're screwed folks


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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

> True. Therefore your demands for more information
> from the IA are misdirected.

Only if 1) it's a given that the GD are behind this and 2) you know that some clarification is coming from GDP. And if that's the case, why not simply say so? All this subterfuge is only causing undue confusion and anxiety.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: mikeyG Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

I dont see how the Grateful Dead could honestly do something like this. I mean, 40 years of the same policy and now this, something just doesnt add up. Are there even any shows for donwload or are they only for streaming? What is the scope of the removal?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Are there even any shows for donwload or are they only for streaming? What is the scope of the removal?

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=47634

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Poster: jcroot Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

what exactly doesn't add up? gdp benefits from selling records of live shows + ia has the same shows for free + when given a choice people typically like free things better than ones they have to pay for + no market for gdp merchandise except perhaps bear decals (carry the one) = gdp informs ia not to host any more sbd shows or audience shows for dl to improve demand for their products that are for sale or will be in the future.

disappointing but not mysterious

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Poster: mikeyG Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:05am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Yeah i mean it makes sense, I guess I just always put the Grateful Dead in a seperate boat when it comes to these types of things but when it comes down to it there no different than anybody else...making money is more important than providing free music to the masses

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

> what exactly doesn't add up?

I think what the original poster meant by "not adding up" is that the policy in place up to about 24 hours ago seemed to be working fine. I'll cite the Fillmore East '69 run as a perfect example. Those shows were available here for some time, yet when the GD decided to officially release them, the box sets still sold like hotcakes. If the $500+ prices they're fetching on eBay is any indication, the demand is still pretty high.

Now, if it's GDPs intention to make the entire vault available for a reasonable price, then why haven't they announced this intention yet? Either way, I still don't see the conflict with LMA, given the example cited above and the fact that most of the new downloads are shows that were never available here in the first place.

Which brings me to the next point....the reason that the recent official downloads aren't selling so well has nothing to do with LMA. It's because $20 is simply too much for most folks to spend on a show that you have to burn yourself.

I can see the logic GDP is applying, but their fundamentla assumptions seem flawed.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: dire--wolf Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Dianna, to your knowlege, will there be any formal word from the Dead in regards to this situation or is it just what it is?

In addition, as volunteer's for the Archive, does your team have access to these shows that are not available to us or are they off limits to the staff as well?

Repsecfuly, I feel everyone just want's some sort of answer to clarify so there isn't all this speculation. It would be easier to adjust knowing the truth.

Thank you for your time.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

What I know on the current changes is already covered in what you can read in Brewster's posts. He's talked about the changes from the Archive's viewpoint in a very clear way that is sufficient for here.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-23 09:12:18

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Poster: chun Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Apparently not - since everyone is clamoring to know the entire story......

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 22, 2005 11:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

gotta wonder people if this had something to do with the article in Time mag. (or Newsweek - cant remember which).

GD must have seen dollar signs flying out the window when this site got more public recognition.

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Poster: scuppers Date: Nov 22, 2005 11:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Yep, This sure is lame. I had just begun downloading some of the greatest music ever made in the whole world. I managed to get my favorite dozen and I had intended to get more. I was so stoked. I told my brother and a friend who are also loyal fans of the Dead that i had some of the sweetest shows. I was going to give them CD's and i was not expecting anything in return ($$$$$$). I believe that music is meant for the people. It shapes lives and gives us hope. it picks you up when your down, puts a smile on your face when you have a frown. The dead have so much music history that certain folks ( dedicated fans, Dead heads) rely on to get by. Just as we have since the late 60's. All i can say is sit back and be patient folks, maybe they will find it in their hearts to put the music back where it belongs, and where it has always been.... To the people that have loyaly stood by and supported the dead for all these years. "Fat monitors Bob"

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Poster: donbatson Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

I personally am crushed! I was enjoying life and smiling again at the chance to re-visit some of the best times in my life. Shows I saw ... all I was doing was learning how to smile again at the joy Grateful Dead music could bring me. Very disappointed guys ... a crushing blow I could barely stand to take. Thanks anyway

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:07am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

gotta wonder people if this had something to do with the article in Time mag

That was my own first hunch- the blessing and the curse of being a high profile site, huh?

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 23, 2005 2:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

maybe you should just listen to rush and settle down . seems like alot of so called deadheads here need to mellow .

its quite obvious what is happening here. no need to blast the good folks here at the archive for doing a great job on preserving MUSIC, not just grateful dead music but a lot of GREAT BANDS. thats their PURPOSE,to ARCHIVE shows.

their are STILL AUDIENCE SHOWS.from my experience with heads and traders they would rather have audience shows anyway.
problem here is that alot of you heads have been spoiled by this site and expect to be hand fed killer sounding shows. well what did you do before this site was around ? these shows are still avail . you just need to now go back to the basics. and if you have never done it the old way then it's time to learn. the deadhead community is better behaved thAn this and i am not appreciative at the responses to this situation. WOULD YOU ALL RATHER NOT OF BEEN ABLE TO GET ANY SHOWS. CAUSE IT COULD END UP THAT WAY .

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 23, 2005 3:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

> maybe you should just listen to rush

Good advice for anyone, actually....

> seems like alot of so called deadheads here
> need to mellow .

Given the circumstnces, I think just about everyone has been perfectly polite in this debate.

We're all just looking for answers. I'm not sure why those "in the know" are so hesitant to explain why this happened and give a good clue as to the direction we should take in trying to rectify the situation.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 23, 2005 8:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

looks like the dead will need an arbitrator to settle this!

rush is awesome !! one of my fav bands. too bad they arent here .
check out www.dimeadozen.org for some killer shows...





This post was modified by Fishead on 2005-11-23 16:22:39

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

doesn't really say anything. Again, I think all here are entitled to a detailed explanation of what is going on. Absent that, I can arive at only 2 scenarios as to what is happening here.

It sure as hell isn't the second scenario. From Brewster Kahle's (archive.org founder) and Matt Vernon's (I'm sure you know Matt) first post:

"Based on discussions with many involved, the Internet Archive has been asked to change how the Grateful Dead concert recordings are being distributed on the Archive site for the time being."

Please got back and read that one closely.

Therefore, you know it's not an archive.org decision. It should also be safe to assume that they have been asked not to communicate any other details about these discussions to the public, because I'm sure they would have by now (I am not privy to this information either for what it's worth..)

they [the LMA] should return every last disc to the proper owners and expunge the data from their personal archives.

Why would you want archive.org to stop preserving these recordings even if they can no longer make them available to the public? Isn't there a value in having them preserved somewhere for the decades to come? If the powers that be change their mind and let them out again, where will archive.org get them?

Look, nobody here expects people to by happy about the decision that made this content unavailable. However, what Brewster asked is for everyone to do more productive things with their energy than find who to blame and get worked up about those parties. I hope you folks can do start doing that.

-Brad
Archive.org Curator

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2005-11-23 09:13:22

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

> Why would you want archive.org to stop preserving
> these recordings even if they can no longer make them
> available to the public?

What would the point be of donating my recordings to such an "archive?" I'd be just as well off burying my tapes in the back yard and leaving a map for my kids to find someday.

Here's a better idea....I hereby declare myself a non-profit achiving entity. Everyone now feel free to send me all your GD shows, and I promise to archive them safely for decades to come.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but do you see my point?


> If the powers that be change their mind and let
> them out again, where will archive.org get them?

Nothing in Brewster's statement indicates that this is a possibility, let alone why the shows were removed in the first place. No one (besides you) even know who the "powers that be" are, so as to have an appropriate avenue to vent our frustration.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

What would the point be of donating my recordings to such an "archive?" I'd be just as well off burying my tapes in the back yard and leaving a map for my kids to find someday.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but do you see my point?


I don't see your point at all. The recordings are not yours, or mine. And neither of us donated them - so how can you possibly feel you have the right to order burning them? Burning libraries (even private ones) cannot be justified in my mind, and it depresses me that people would push for it. Nothing about these decisions changes the fact that 30 years of this artist is worth preservation.

There's a bigger picture than todays frustration. Destroying stuff is never the answer.

Nothing in Brewster's statement indicates why the shows were removed in the first place.

"the Internet Archive has been asked to change how the Grateful Dead concert recordings are being distributed
on the Archive site for the time being."

I don't know about you, but that shouts that someone with legal authorization requested it.

No one (besides you) even know who the "powers that be" are, so as to have an appropriate avenue to vent our frustration.

To repeat what I said above - I was never privy to the info either. All I know is that Brewster's statement clearly shows us the decision did not originate from archive.org, and this does not surprise me in the least.

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Poster: Ron2112 Date: Nov 23, 2005 2:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

> I don't see your point at all. The recordings are not
> yours, or mine. And neither of us donated them - so
> how can you possibly feel you have the right to order
> burning them?

Who said anything about "burning" the library? I used the word "bury" as a metaphor to describe what you guys are doing with the material that has been donated to you.

Bringing this back to the original point: as custodians of material that has been generously DONATED to you, the administration of this site owes the community the common courtesy of a more precise explanation than what has been provided so far.

Peace,
Ron

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 23, 2005 2:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

It's when you said it like this:

they should return every last disc to the proper owners and expunge the data from their personal archives. or they should return all their borrowed recordings to the rightful owners

that images of burning came to mind. :(

Heh, "burying" for the future is actually low-tech archiving though, isn't it? If someone had just thrown a big mound of dirt over the Library instead of torching it, think of all the Sophocles we'd have on hand now.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 23, 2005 2:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: IA Preservation

Burning libraries (even private ones) cannot be justified in my mind, and it depresses me that people would push for it.

A previous post by Brewster about a 1-year experiment on something else here:

"You may ask-- why a test period of a year? well we are an archive and we think long term. Our culture makes us hesitant about taking things out of archives (images of burning come to mind), and restrictions that last forever. Forever is a long time."

Reminder: The logo in the upper left corner of any IA page is a reference to the Library of Alexandria.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-23 10:02:09

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Poster: Hatta Date: Nov 23, 2005 2:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

If someone from the dead contacted them and asked them to change their policy, then why don't they publish the letter? This has happened before:

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-details.php?band_id=83

It's not a big deal when everyone's forthcoming about what's going on. It's the secrecy, and the uncharacteristicly shabby way the band is treating its fans that has everyone up in arms. The Grateful Dead have something to hide.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Nov 23, 2005 9:05am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

If someone from the dead contacted them and asked them to change their policy, then why don't they publish the letter?

Probably because the letter was combined with the request "please don't publish this".

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Poster: tamb Date: Nov 23, 2005 9:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

I've been a dead supporter for years, yes we've all heard it before (spent thousands of dollars), they havent posted anything, lets see?

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Poster: dire--wolf Date: Nov 23, 2005 8:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?


what or who is the answer? can't anyone just say it? was it the grateful dead or not?!!! let's please put this to rest!!

peacefully and respectfully, thank you :)

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Poster: mikeyG Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

Im not sure if anyone knows this or if it has already been discussed, but how much say did the existing members of the Grateful Dead have in this decision.

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Poster: liranfa Date: Nov 23, 2005 1:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Grateful Dead Removal: What's the Whole Story?

The taping community of the Grateful Dead has been preserving these recordings, audience made or soundboard fed, for over 40 years. I personally believe someone needs to come up with some sort of explanation as to why the recordings that we donated are not available anymore. That's just common sense to me but then I'm just a lowly, stinky deadhead......at least that's how I feel now. I feel like whomever is responsible for this took a big, fat dump on the whole deadhead community.

This post was modified by liranfa on 2005-11-23 09:26:48

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